And how many did this usually in the face of opposition?
The God Delusion
What opposition they received from within the scientific community was from individuals who had forgotten the scientific method and had allowed pride, ego, and paranoia to influence their methods. Scientists are human, after all. A little historical knowledge shows that almost all of the "opposition" came from the entrenched non-science institutions such as the church, and from people who still believed in such superstitions as numerology and astrology.
You left out Galileo Galilei!
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Not a very long list. I remember watching the engineering professors who were present and who were, of course, horrified by his approach, because to them reality was the wheels in the machinery - really solid entities, [says Professor Hyman Levy, then a research student at the university] And here was this man talking in abstract terms about space-time and the geometry of space-time Enough names to refute your claim that " Can we end this?
If anyone wants to end their involvement with the thread, they can just stop posting to it. There's no need for a formal declaration of its conclusion unless it's the BA's.
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This is a science board. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone that the folks here are going to ask for evidence to support that claim.
The God Delusion
If gzhpcu or anyone decides that they don't want to discuss this topic I don't see the problem. An extraordinary claim. I really sound nuttier than a fruitcake I also said that I was in full agreement with the scientific arguments against astrology. Immediately the guardians of scientific thinking respond with indignation Of course, I apparently acted as a heretic, by looking into a methodology considered as hocus pocus, putting myself in the company of such weirdos as Carl Jung.
Looks pretty bad, I will admit Immediately I am viewed as astrologer-per-excellence, a woo woo nobody came out and said it, but the writing is on the wall challenged to provide the scientific basis, scoffed at for being gullible, lectured in what real scientific thinking is.http://modernpsychtraining.com/cache/mobile/pyvy-cell-phone.php
Vedic Jyotish Astrology Software and Ephemeris for Windows
This is really making a mountain out of a molehill IMHO A lot of people hammering away at once can feel intimidating, like a dogpile, like a mass assault, or like a tag-team. This is what I've seen several times on this board, and generally now I try and stay out of dogpiles unless something comes up that I might know something about.
Being dogpiled happens to be one of those things. The bottom line is that you make your case, keep an even temper despite apparent snipes and jibes, and give the benefit of the doubt to the non-inflected language of the web. Back to the subject. Astrology makes a lot of claims. Many of these claims are spurious at best, and when subjected to rigorous evaluation are found to be vague enough to avoid making specific predictions.
I've read plenty on both sides, and yes, at first it does look like there might be something to it. The descriptions are sometimes very applicable, almost eerily so.
But, as a test, draft up a random birth chart and see if it applies. Do this several times. Active or very passive. In other words, like a John Edwards opening, they are general enough to appear insightful. In truth, enough study of human nature and the idea that it hasn't changed all that much over the years can lead to general statements about human beings. Yearning for success, talented, bright, cheerful, inventive, and so on. Not that everyone is, but that everyone considers themselves to be. Additionally, there are truths to the dispositions of people likely to consult horoscopes that narrow this profile still further.
Uncertain, afraid of change, feeling out of control. Not that everyone is, but that just about everyone feels this way occasionally, and is likely to consult any source for reassurance, believer or no. If you believe in them, there is no power on earth that will make you not believe in them. But that is their only real power: whether you take them for what they are or not. To me horoscopes, like tarot card readings, serve at best to make us pause and take stock of our lives without having to sit on a couch. There's nothing there but what one puts into it, and as long as one understands that, there's no real harm.
Pat Kelley. Pat, I am trying to take this all with a grain of salt, and do not really feel as if I were on a cross Firstly, you are right about the language of astrologers being couched in general terms. The whole area is fuzzy and just opposite to the approach taken in science. However, I find this is the unsatisfying approach taken by professional astrologers who want to hedge their bets.
I feel one can be more daring, by applying the methods oneself of course, the interpretation is based on experiences made by other astrologers and is best corrected on ones own experience. I will just make a brief example: my mom is a very caring, a really mother-hen, latin mama. The parameters in her horoscope in this respect are crystal clear: pardon my hocus pocus lingo Her sun is in cancer, her moon emotions is in cancer.
Cancer is the sign of emotional people, maternal thinking. Both are in the third house thinking which implies her thoughts constantly revolve around family, etc. This is strengthened by her planet Mercury intellect being in the fourth house family. Her Jupiter joy is in the fourth house.
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And she is a worrier about family issues too shown by Saturn - fears - in the fourth house. Quite a number of significant parameters underlying her most significant charateristic and which to me goes beyond the probability of randomness. I have experienced a number of such clear-cut to me horoscopes, which led me to think "there might be something to it" Fire away No firing necessary.
Some people do very much match their horoscope descriptions. But, like with other events that we remember that might have bordered on the supernatural, we remember the ones that match, seem more than coincidental, or appear to have some significance. An example: a person I knew was arguing phenomena with me, and asked me why "it always seems there is someone parking or leaving adjacent to you at the same time as you" when going to or leaving the supermarket. Piqued by this, I observed two or three times at first, and coincidentally, it appeared she was correct. But then I thought about it some more, and made more careful and rigorous observations: first, there are technically five "adjacent" spaces that count.
Second, the event could be coming or going. Third, and most telling, when I rigorously observed the pattern went away. There were occasionally clusters of two or three observations in a row that appeared to bear the pattern out, but they were never consistent and never kept up any kind of regularity over background "noise" or random chance. That's the key: we remember the ones that appear to follow the rules because we are observers by nature.
We try and figure out cause when events occur. The edge astrology has is that it starts with a vague enough reference, like the parking lot definition of five adjacent spaces, and capitalizes on being "right" enough to convince people that the "wrong" predictions are flukes.
Have you tried this astrology on world leaders, or other celebrities for whom it would be easy to find birth-dates? Or perhaps historical figures? Or other people you are familiar with? Your father? If you try it on all of these people and assiduously record the results without bias, or better yet have someone else do it for you, perhaps something will show up, perhaps not.
If the answer is "maybe" the study calls for more data. I recently read the biography of Al Capone and wondered it his horoscope would give any correlation with his violent, asocial behariour. I have lots of other interests and have not taken the time to do any large scale statistics. Here is his natal horoscope.
The lines interconnecting them show particular angles where are either harmonious or disharmonious.